Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

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Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Merel » 2009-03-17 14:04

When the download vncviewer_154_w32 (Windows 32) is completed, has been downloaded, I end up with two unpacked files
(but no readme.txt file to instruct users what to do) :

1. vncviewer.exe
2. vncviewer_tab.exe

Both files have the green icon.

Maybe it is a stupid question, but it appears all too often that users are left in the dark for almost any install /uninstall issue.

- I guess that both files could be "installers" (if UltraVNC would behave like any other Windows applcation, which it doesn't)

- But maybe those 2 files should simply to be copied to the directory, where my current version is installed ? (version 1.02)

Question : What is next move ?

(Another question is HOWTO UNINSTALL UltraVNC, or just a part of it like only the viewer ?
This issue is for an other topic and might become even worse to solve in a simple easy manner :| )
Last edited by Merel on 2009-03-17 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New VNCVIEWER vulnerability found and fixed - Feb. 3d 20

Postby Rudi De Vos » 2009-03-17 14:36

The 2 viewers you found are the bins, no installer.
You can copy them where you want and run them from there. ( If you copy them on a usb stick, you can use it direct from the stick without installing)

1.0.2 uninstall
1) Stop the service first if you are running the server as service
2) In the vnc folder you have an uninstall or you can use the OS uninstall function and select ultravnc

1054 install
You need to download update 105.3 FULL install
and replace the viewers of 1053 with 1054

The viewer is a standalone application that doesn't require installation.
You can use the installer and select viewer only or just run the bin
Last edited by Rudi De Vos on 2009-03-17 14:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby redge » 2009-03-18 00:08

Merel wrote:I guess that both files could be "installers"

installer are with setup/install word in the filename. is not the case here.

Another question is HOWTO UNINSTALL UltraVNC


* software have install/Uninstall
Start... Control Panel... Add/Remove software... select UltraVNC... select Uninstall

------

* software had noIinstall/Uninstall are ready to use from where is leave (mainly on desktop)

delete file .exe or/and folder(s) have been unzipped from vncviewer_1054_w32.zip (folder)
UltraVNC 1.0.9.6.1 (built 20110518)
OS Win: xp home + vista business + 7 home
only experienced user, not developer
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Merel » 2009-03-18 10:19

Thanks to both regde and Rudi

About Uninstalling UltraVNC

I would strongly suggest to include in the Windows Start >Programs > UltraVNC menu a link to the uninstall unin000.exe.

This way one sees it immediately at most logical location, instead of remaining somewhat hidden in the C:\Programs\VNC installation folder.

My advice for users :
My most used programs are acessed by links, at locations wherever being most convenient for myself. If you have also your personal method to acces programs by using links, don't forget to add a link for this unins000.exe and rename it "Unintall uVNC"


I was also a bit confused by the fact that the usual method (Add/Remove Programs in Control panel) generates a list with the blue icon only. I was not aware immediately about the fact that the viewer is a freestanding application, where Windows doesn't put his nose.

To avoid waste of time asking help on the forum, I would appreciate if all necessary steps in sequence for a total remove were executed in a batchfile.

As Rudi wrote : first "deactivate the service" , I would believe that such action (made manually) would become eventually included in a batch file. Less work for forum help requests and less answers to make here in the forum.

The latest updated UVNC-viewer is already working here.

Only, I don't know why last night, the controlled PC rejected each acces attempt from the updated new VNC-Viewer (because password not accepted) while this morning after a fresh restart of both computers it was running right from the first attempt, without any changes made, neither on viewers or servers on both computers.

Computers keep some secrets, and maybe it's better that way ?
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Homer » 2010-01-24 19:51

First, this is not meant as a rant. It is intended to be constructive and instructive commentary on a topic that, I think, needs serious attention. I agree with the need for better documentation. There is a big difference between telling *how it works* versus *how to make it work*. How it works is fine for an engineering document, or for system/programmer documentation. How to make it work is different, and is needed so the end user can understand how to use the product. It should never be a highly technical document. Think about the cook book that tells how to make a cake. It doesn't discuss the chemical reactions that makes the cake to rise. It just tells how to make the cake.

Technical people naturally want to tell how something works, which seldom helps someone learn how make it work. Sure, the technology is something to be proud of, but the purpose of that technology should be to make a product that is easy to use, and works well. From an end-user's standpoint, they don't care about the technology as long as it makes getting their job done quicker and easier. Highly technical documents make an end user think it will not be quicker or easier -- especially if they don't understand the technology.

Remember that when a user is new (or just thinking about using), they usually know almost nothing about the product, or even the terms used to describe it. Take the word *server* for example: Does it refer to the system used by the support person because they are providing the service? Or, does it mean the system used by the person needing the service because they are serving up their system for remote access? Or, let's take the word *Client*. Is that the customer or a logical unit in a Client/Server relationship.

To experienced users, these may seem like stupid examples, but if you want to eliminate confusion, terms should be defined before any attempt to write user instructions. Then the author MUST describe the process of *how to make it work*. Once that is finished, the author should have a third party proof-read the document to make sure it is saying what is intended. This is especially true if the author is using a language other than their native one. The proof reader's native language should be the one in which the document is written, if possible. Then, if the document is to be posted on the web, it should be read once again using a browser to make certain words are not being cut off at margins, and that symbols or phrases are not being modified by the browser or the HTML itself.

These points are basic, but they are fundamental to good product documentation. I know. I taught that subject at the university level. That being said, when I started to consider UltraVNC, a great deal of what I read left me confused. It was necessary to read posts of countless users before I had even a basic understanding of of how the system worked. I'm still a bit in the dark. My time is valuable. I shouldn't have to install the product, and then learn by my mistakes. The current documentation makes me think I will have a hard time using it, when all I want to do is support my customers. All of the comments about switches, command line arguments, etc. make it seem very difficult to setup and use. I begin to think that using UltraVNC will make me to person that needs support. I don't want to struggle with a product. The only thing that has kept my attention is the number of positive user testimonials.

Finally, the lack of good documentation makes paying the money for a commercial product seem worthwhile. I've tried the 30 day evaluation of GoToAssist, and it worked easily the first time. The documentation was simple, clear, and left no confusion about how to make it work. It didn't tell me about ports, or command line arguments. It just told me what I needed to do to install and use it. The bottom line is that I was able to help my customer in less time than giving phone support. That's my goal regardless of the technology.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Merel » 2010-01-25 20:17

Homer wrote:..... There is a big difference between telling *how it works* versus *how to make it work*. How it works is fine for an engineering document, or for system/programmer documentation. How to make it work is different, and is needed so the end user can understand how to use the product....
Technical people naturally want to tell how something works, which seldom helps someone learn how make it work....


Welcome to the Club !

It is a mystery why so many high-tech people are not able to write a simple User Manual in plain English or any other language which, can be understood at first reading, without raising doubts or questions.

That's because everything in a specialist's mind has become so familiar, that he assumes that everybody knows already... what they consider as basic knowledge.

Software developers maybe more than others behave like this.
Generally speaking, if ever a user asks more explanations, all too often he gets an answer in shorthand style but remains as stupid as before asking the question.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby losty__ » 2010-01-26 07:21

OMG...after hours of searching for the documentations... Finally i've found something useful (i hope)...

http://doc.ultravnc.net/

will try to set it up now...

BTW...i'm still lost about the difference between the server and viewer? Where and which do i install on the remote computer? anyone care to explain? I'm sorry for these stupid questions, but i wouldn't ask if they were straight forward and there are indications or easy to find instructions in the first place.

*gosh* since it's a powerful freeware...but why do you have to make my life harder... :yell:
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 14:45

I agree that the current documentation is a mess.... :|

The server should be installed on the computer you want to control.
The viewer is used to connect to the server and show you the screen on the server computer.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby losty__ » 2010-01-26 15:02

thank you supercoe... i've sort of figured that out after hours of mucking around with it.

But wouldn't this work, if I only install the viewer on my machine and install SC on the remote computer?

I'm still a little bit confused after browsing through the forum. How do i go about connecting to the remote computer? If it's locally, simply enter the IP address right? But what if it's over the internet? What address / host do i need to type in? Also, last question, what's all that about port forwarding?

Excuse me...im a total noob to this.

thank you in advance for all the explainations and help.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 16:20

Port forwarding is in the FAQ's
Port forwarding NAT/router/firewall for any VNC

If you don't understand simple networking (port forwarding) then setting up UltraVNC to work over the internet is going to be difficult to understand.
Port forwarding explained:
http://portforward.com/help/portforwarding.htm

If you are using SingleClick refer to the SC part of the forum:
http://forum.ultravnc.info/viewforum.php?f=15

Single click creates a connection from the server back to the viewer, thus eliminating any port forwarding needed on the server side. In a SC situation port forwarding is only needed on the viewer side.

If you are using the main UltraVNC install, you only need to port forward on the server side.


Good luck!
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Homer » 2010-01-26 18:05

OMG...after hours of searching for the documentations... Finally i've found something useful (i hope)...

http://doc.ultravnc.net/



I'm happy that documentation was helpful for you, but I consider it an insult. The instructions for installation were nothing more than a string of screen copies with absolutely no instructional text. It didn't even tell me if the installation was for a server or a viewer. The documentation for this product (free or not) is possibly the worst I have ever seen. I haven't given up yet, but it's close.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 18:45

Homer wrote: The documentation for this product (free or not) is possibly the worst I have ever seen..


UltraVNC isn't free, it's open source.

If you want to create better documentation feel free to share.
In the mean time there are plenty of people here willing to help on this forum if you just ask a question.
Last edited by supercoe on 2010-01-26 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Homer » 2010-01-26 19:10

If you want to create better documentation feel free to share.
In the mean time there are plenty of people here willing to help on this forum if you just ask a question.


I suspect one of the reasons the documentation is so poor is that most people who are interested in this type of product are interested because customer support is taking too much time. That is certainly true with me. Not having enough time to support customers certainly doesn't give one the time it takes to write good documentation. So, as much as I would like to help, that just isn't in the cards -- for me, at least.

The other problem is that, at this point, I don't know enough about the product to even begin to help. I also don't know enough to ask intelligent questions yet.

Time is my enemy, right now. That's why I'm interested in tools that can save time. My frustration is that it is taking far too much time to just understand where to begin with UltraVNC.

I should thank you for your reply. I forced me to think about my situation. I can't afford the time to go to the VNC school of hard knocks, but I can afford to spend $65 a month for GoToAssist. Perhaps when I'm not under such a time crunch I'll take another look at UltraVNC. I guess it's just not for me right now. Maybe by then someone will take documentation seriously.

BTW, I'm a programmer, and I use a lot of open source software. This really is the worst documentation I've ever run into. I'm sure the product is much better.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 19:53

Homer,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The same frustration that you and many others are having is the same thing I've gone through as it took me a few months to get everything figured out. Luckily, my business allows me the time to devote to UltraVNC as I use it every day as a tool to support customers.

The "programmer designed" nature of UltraVNC is very powerful once mastered but I agree that it's no where near as simple as it could be.
This is what led me to create ChunkVNC.

I appreciate the way that you've responded and wish others would share your mindset. Far to many come here expecting the service and support of a commercial product. Like you said, making the decision to either spend the time or the money is really your only choice.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Homer » 2010-01-26 20:31

supercoe wrote:Thanks for the thoughtful reply.


You are welcome. I know what I have written sounds a lot like a rant. I don't mean it that way. I am just frustrated because I recognize the potential of UltraVNC, and disappointed that something as simple as good documentation is standing in the way of my taking advantage of it.

To paraphrase something I said in an earlier post, the documentation we have right now would benefit greatly from a few simple definitions. I need an understanding of words like Client, Server, Viewer, Repeater, etc. If I really understood what is meant by them, I'm sure the rest of the text would make sense.

Since I do a lot of database work, it would also help if it was made clear what the author means by "Client" especially since the product has a "Server." While the web site devoted to your wrapper is much better than the UVNC stuff, it too, could use a little clarity for folks like me. I don't understand "Repeater." I also don't know if your reference to "client" means customer, or something to do with Client/Server.

Technical writing is a real PITA. I've done it and I've taught it. It still isn't as simple as it seams. Back in my college days, when the US was still trying to put men on the moon, my Technical Writing instructor said, "In NASA, the difference between good documentation and bad, is measured in how big the explosion will be."
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 20:57

Homer,

Thanks for the input about my documentation, I'm constantly adjusting the wording and I'll take what you've said into consideration.

I agree that technical writing is very difficult, even more so than the programming itself. The problem is whichever way I write it, it always makes sense to me! :P


To clarify some of your client/server questions:

Server - winvnc.exe - Hosts the screen image and allows control of the computer it's running on.

Viewer - vncviewer.exe - Connects to the server and provides you with a window to view and control the computer that's running the server.

Repeater - The repeater is an optional component that mediates the connection between the server and viewer instead of them connecting directly to each other.

This information is all in the main ChunkVNC post and on the website, do you think I should clarify it more?
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby Homer » 2010-01-26 21:39

supercoe wrote:... do you think I should clarify it more?


Yes. It is much better than what I have read on the uVNC pages, but your explanation of Repeater could be expanded upon. Your illustration shows that being installed on a third computer. In my mind, I picture my computer controlling a remote computer without the need for a third, intermediate one. There is a grammar issue in the sentence that defines Repeater. I think a word might have been left out.

Also, better clarification of "Client" would help. Again, I do a lot of Client/Server database stuff, so my interpretation might be tainted.

One trap that many tech writers fall into, is using terms in a definition that they themselves need explaining. For example, "End User." When it comes to something like uVNC, am I the end user because I download and use it, or is my customer the end user. One must always write with the audience's point of view in mind.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-01-26 22:06

In my mind, I picture my computer controlling a remote computer without the need for a third, intermediate one..

The "default" way that UltraVNC functions is a direct connection between the server and viewer without utilizing a repeater.
My solution uses the repeater (preferably running on it's own computer) to decrease the number of ports that need to be forwarded in a multiple technician/customer situation.

Thanks again for the advice, I'll be adjusting my documentation.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby losty__ » 2010-01-27 01:12

Homer wrote:
OMG...after hours of searching for the documentations... Finally i've found something useful (i hope)...

http://doc.ultravnc.net/



I'm happy that documentation was helpful for you, but I consider it an insult. The instructions for installation were nothing more than a string of screen copies with absolutely no instructional text. It didn't even tell me if the installation was for a server or a viewer. The documentation for this product (free or not) is possibly the worst I have ever seen. I haven't given up yet, but it's close.


agree... i was hoping that it was useful...but it turns out to be not. I'm still confuse myself and still try to figure out how to work this things out.

Supercoe...can you clarifly this.. Would this work, if I only install the viewer on my machine and install SC on the remote computer? Also...i'm still not sure what's the purpose of installing the UVNC Server? That's mainly for connecting to the server remotely and manage the computers beneath it?
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby bayotle » 2010-07-11 05:16

supercoe, you wrote the wrapper? (chunkvnc) :o
If so, high-5!

I spent days digging around for a solution that my clients could easily use and was about to abandon this in search for something that would work as i needed it to, 2 minutes of playing with your wrapper and had a test setup worked out and functional, 2 minutes after that I have the live version for my clients to pull from my website (wish coding my webpages were that easy!)

I do have one question on the repeater though, after digging through the forums I've yet to find the answer (wrong key word search maybe...)

I'm trying to see if there is a way (built in) to install the repeater as a service on one of my servers. If so, it would allow me to automatically turn the service on/off and not have the server logged on.

As far as the comments on the documentation, being a programmer myself for decades, I found the documentation to be a royal pain! But I also know programmers have a keen insight to their own creations, i'm sure the (very few!) documents I've written were just as confusing and missing information. And this is also why companies hire technical writers!

You pretty much need to be brain dead to the app you're trying to document to get all the information needed to help others... Dont see many coders having that much patience while strung out on mountain dew! :wink:
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-07-11 15:53

bayotle,

Glad you had good luck with ChunkVNC!

Although it isn't recommended (some users reported problems) you can install the repeater service by passing the -install command line option. Remove with -uninstall.

Documentation is a pain but I've found the easiest thing to do is to have everyone direct questions to the ChunkVNC subforum:
http://forum.ultravnc.info/viewforum.php?f=50


Dont see many coders having that much patience while strung out on mountain dew!

lol yea, that's why I stick to the beer people donate.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby bayotle » 2010-07-12 09:41

Thanks for the reply, got to test out the new setup tonight and it worked like a charm and it's now ready for prime time!

You have have saved some old mans life from having to bring his system in!

And thanks for the info about the service setup, think i'll give it a try and see if there are issues, otherwise, guess i could static a workstation just to handle the repeater!

I'll have to think about the beer thing, not to sure i want you coding buzzed, may melt my hard drive! 8)
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby supercoe » 2010-07-12 13:17

Another success story. :)

If you choose to run the repeater as a service please post about you're experience. From what I've seen the service hangs after a few days and just needs to be restarted. Maybe just restart the service once a night?

On a side note, don't forget that running the repeater on the viewer computer is possible. This might be a better solution that setting up an entire box just for the repeater.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby bayotle » 2010-07-13 03:12

From what you say, then no problem, the server auto-reboots daily at 4am. I dont want the service running 24/7 so it will be automatically terminated after hours.

The reason for setting up a system for the repeater was so that the 'server' wasn't logged on, I find that a security issue especially with other people running around, and placing it on my workstation is that ....
a. i have multiple workstations i log in from
b. none have static ip addresses.

I had to setup the router to forward the ports to a specific ip address so best bet for me is the service (if possible)

Doesn't really matter, one extra step to fire up the repeater isn't that big of a deal with the bennies from it working, and even if i had to fire it up a dozen times a day, the time your wrapper saved me far out weighs the effort!!!

8)

Seriously, dont see how anyone could have a problem as simple as that was!

And yes, thanks again!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update: 2 1/2 months later and it's working like a charm with only a few minor issues..
Seems that dayum windows protection b.s. on vista and windows 7 doesn't show up on the screen or give you access to it. Outside of that, it's working flawless... :)
Last edited by bayotle on 2010-10-03 02:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Instructions (again) not enough detailed.

Postby bayotle » 2012-04-30 02:05

Wow, been awhile since i've been on here! (so long I had problems log'n on!)
But just for the h3ll of it, heres an update, still no problems with the repeater!
Well none except the dayum server refuses to wake up because the APC is dying!

As far as ChunkVNC, only problems I have is with the Windows 7 UAC and THAT is why i'm back! ;)
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